The Art of Creative Testing in Digital Advertising with Robert Brill

Brett Deister: 00:00:12

Mm, that's good.

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And welcome to a new episode of

Digital Coffee Marketing Brew,

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and I'm your host, Brett Deister.

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And this week we're gonna

be talking about ads.

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Everybody's favorite thing to really

understand, but also hates them at

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the same time because we hate bad ads.

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That's what we usually hate and

majority of heads are unfortunately

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bad, but this week or this month I

should say, I have Robert with me and

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he has been advertising since 2003.

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He has shifted from just doing

your ordinary thing, and he's also

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helped companies advertise on many.

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About 62% of them have failed because they

don't know how to advertise effectively.

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Yeah.

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Which is what we're

gonna be talking about.

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So welcome to the show, Robert.

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Robert Brill: Thanks, Brad.

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Appreciate you having me.

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Yeah, I'm I've spent 20 years in

advertising and one thing I know is that

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a lot of people, d hate advertising,

dislike advertising, but they also

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like the benefits that come with

advertising, such as free access to

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some of the world's best platforms.

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But we get it.

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We're marketers, we're advertisers,

we're interrupters, and

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sometimes that's not the best.

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Brett Deister: Yes.

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And the first question I all my guests

is, are you a coffee or a tea drinker?

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A

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Robert Brill: hundred percent coffee

and I'm drinking coffee right now.

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Did you have any,

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Brett Deister: Favorite brew

or are you just like Starbucks

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and I don't really care?

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Robert Brill: No.

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I'm a little bit of a snob.

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We went to Hawaii last year

for a few weeks, and I'm

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drinking oh man, Kauai Coffee.

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The brand is called Kauai, which I

just, here's the thing about this.

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In, at, I'm in Los Angeles, so in

super at the supermarket here in Los

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Angeles, you can get Kauai Coffee, but

it's 10% of the coffee is from Hawaii.

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The rest of it is from around the world,

like South America and other places.

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The coffee that I buy is

from the E-Commerce Store.

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Their website is a hundred percent

Hawaiian coffee, dramatically

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different, rich, robust flavor,

and I recommend it for all.

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All my coffee snob friends.

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Brett Deister: Nice.

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And I gave a brief summary of your

expertise, but can you give listeners

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a little bit more about what you do?

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Robert Brill: Digital advertising

how to use data targeting technology

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algorithms to find your best customers.

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Worked in the business for 20 years.

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I've grown my agency, Brill

Media for the last 10 years.

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And we buy ads on search,

social display, connected tv,

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digital, out of home, et cetera.

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So if.

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You need to reach

customers, drive more sales.

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We do that with advertising,

with predictable, repeatable,

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and scalable business solutions,

the best you have out there.

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Brett Deister: Got you.

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And as we all know, the digital

landscape has been changing,

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especially advertising has evolved.

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So what are the current trends that we're

seeing in the digital advertising space?

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Robert Brill: Absolutely.

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There's a couple things.

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I'll talk general consumers

want their privacy.

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They have spoken, governments have spoken

about that, so it's becoming, the data

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in advertising is, has lower fidelity,

so we don't have exact attribution.

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We have close to exact

attribution, and as a result, I.

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It's now harder for advertisers on these

channels to make a direct one-to-one

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attribution between a, a lead and

a and an ad, or a sale and an ad.

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So as a result, we are moving back

to what were the foundations maybe

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10 to 20 years ago in advertising,

which is creative is king.

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We can still target the right people with

media and data, but at the end of the day.

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We will have to use the fundamentals,

the strategic fundamentals of

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advertising to reach consumers.

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And what are those?

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You start, you look at the

demand funnel, look at people

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at the top of the demand funnel.

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They don't know anything about you, but

your job is to educate them that you exist

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and you offer a service consideration.

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Sorry, I have a sneeze coming O.

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Excuse me.

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Thank you.

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Hopefully you can edit that out.

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We'll see.

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At the consideration phase, you want

to give people an opportunity to

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understand more about your product

and why they should buy from you.

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And at the bottom of the funnel, the

purchase phase, you need to run ads

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that get people to buy right now.

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So the result of all this is that,

we have to rely on, on, on the fun,

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the fundamentals of advertising

that have existed for decades now.

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So on a more tactical front, when we buy

advertising on Meta, we do two things.

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Broad targeting, which is age,

gender, and location, which

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is how Meta wants you to use.

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Advert their platform.

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You can look up more details

around look up the performance

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five framework from meta.

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The second thing we do on meta is creative

testing, understanding the products,

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services, and offers and discounts

that your customers resonate with.

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And the way we do that.

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Is we have a 13 minute

video on our website.

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It's brill media.co/creative-testing.

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And the core idea is within two days,

we can call down from 125 different ad

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variations down to the top 20 and down to

the top one in the course of three weeks.

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So you find your, you start, you

do that every three to four weeks.

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You have a.

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An all-star team of ad creative that's

very relevant for your business.

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So not only is your business actually

becoming more effective on social

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platforms, you are also learning

what your customers want from you.

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So it's a double benefit for the business.

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Brett Deister: And speaking on

just the privacy in general, the

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rise in prevalence of ad blockers.

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I know YouTube's tried to

block it and it didn't really,

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it's not going well for them.

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'cause ad blockers are now becoming

more powerful than they have been.

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So how do we, how do we deal with that?

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Because nobody likes ads per

se, but we don't mind good ads.

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We just hate the bad ads.

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And we remember the bad ads.

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Robert Brill: Look, it's,

consumers are paying either

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with their time or their money.

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If you have money, you

pay for the subscription.

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You have time, you pay with giving

your attention to brands in exchange

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for not having to pay for something.

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I look, I think advertising

systems continuously evolve.

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You know the, there are a

few solutions to ad blockers.

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Number one, go to channels where

there isn't ad blocking, which

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is connected television, digital,

out of home, digital audio.

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All of those are still big, robust

channels, but the reality is that

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advertising on meta advertising on

TikTok or Twitter or on your local

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news or sports is still effective.

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And I think as a.

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As a marketer doing this for the last

20 years what resounds for us what's

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important is attention to your work.

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Whether you're a business owner or a

marketing manager, or CMO, whatever

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the case is, it's attention to your

work and looking at the data and

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making strong optimization decisions.

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And the way you do that effectively

is by having a smart team of experts,

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either in-house or with your agency

that is doing that work for you.

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None of this is set it and forget it work.

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And that's the big, that's

where a lot of people trip up.

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Brett Deister: And will the new

technologies like blockchain and all that

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stuff that comes with it, with Web3, will

that help with identifying, targeting?

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Consumers better without too much pri or

data or, and helping the privacy issue?

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Robert Brill: Yeah, there have

been several startups in the

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blockchain and crypto space.

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So for example, there's one that I

think is no longer around that was set

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up to incentivize, to basically pay

people for their data on a per ad basis.

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That's a really, that's a really

cool concept, and I hope someone

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actually delivers that, right?

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Like every user has a, every web

person every human on the web, whether

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it's mobile or desktop, whatever

or your television at this point.

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You have a wallet, you have

an identifier, and every time

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you see an ad, you are paid.

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In, in a token, and that token

is, can be cashed out for dollars.

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Let's say.

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That's one way that crypto could work.

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Now the challenge is getting that

to scale and getting participation

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is dramatically complicated.

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So is it possible?

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Yes.

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I haven't seen it succeed.

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And then other things like identifying

users with crypto, those, there are

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plenty of startups doing that as well.

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Then moving

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Brett Deister: on to like ai,

because AI has been talked about

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through every part of digital

marketing hasn't touched anything.

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We start to see more AI uses for ads

when maybe creating storyboard for it to

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creating the script or even like figuring

out the data better than the marketer.

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Robert Brill: I look at ai, like

I look at steel or electricity.

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A hundred years ago, right?

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There are companies that were categorized

as electric company, I think, in like

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steel companies, but the reality is we all

use electricity to power everything we do.

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So I look at ai there's

gonna be two companies.

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There's gonna be the companies who

are built around the innovation of

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AI and creating solutions for that.

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And there's certainly

technologies out there today that.

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Make that happen.

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But I think also far.

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Less news making are the everyday

uses of AI for professionals.

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Making ad copy better, like

giving me ideas on benefits

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and transformative value.

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Scanning websites to understand what the

website is about so we can distill the

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core ideas down to copy points using AI

to, like for example, upload data sets

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and making analysis of that data sets,

you're never gonna replace the people, but

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the people will become more, more robust

in their abilities because they spend

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less time doing math on Excel and more

time relying on the AI to do the legwork.

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And for you to query that ai, I think

that it, that's less newsworthy, less

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dramatic, but also very valuable.

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Brett Deister: Could AI

help with the AB testing?

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Let's say you put it up to the AI

ad platform and they figure out

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how to show the right ad for them.

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'cause I also do feel like ads play

differently to different people.

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And if you have multiple ads or

if the budget for multiple ads,

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it may be beneficial eventually.

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Maybe if AI gets smart enough

to then go, okay, this person

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may like this one or highly more

likely like this one over this one.

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Robert Brill: Facebook's been

doing that for about a decade.

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I mean that that's the power of.

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What we're doing on meta is exactly what

you described, except I don't control it.

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All I can do is train

it just a little bit.

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Our general thesis on meta is train

meta's machine learning algorithm

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to find your best customers using

broad targeting and creative testing.

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But beyond that.

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The actual setting of the algorithm

or the learning and all that is, for

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the people with PhDs who are getting

paid a lot of money and they, it could

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be like rocket scientists or like

algorithm experts and they chose that.

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Like the, that type of

stuff is really interesting.

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But it's completely black box to us.

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Like we just buy ads on meta.

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Brett Deister: Got you.

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And then, ads can be

different accordingly.

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So like pr, mostly the ads are

about awareness and for marketing

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specifically, it's about more

towards sales than awareness.

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How do you decide?

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What data is right for you if you're

trying to figure all that out?

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Because I think for PR pros, it's

hard to justify the relevance of

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PR when it's just all awareness.

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And awareness isn't really the

best metric most of the time.

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Because if people are aware of you,

it doesn't mean they're actually

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Robert Brill: gonna buy from you.

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Yeah, it's an orchestra, right?

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This goes back to the fun,

the fundamentals of marketing.

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It's you have different.

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Instruments that serve different

purposes that need to be justified

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on a marketing plan that need to

work in concert with each other.

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So for example, when PR drives

awareness, we can take that, that

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pr inclusion in a publication and

drive ads to that publication on

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meta or with other banner ads.

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So now you're taking the top of

funnel awareness and you're using

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that credibility to tell people who

are ready to buy, you should buy.

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See, we were just recently in Forbes.

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So that type of credibility is

where things work hand in hand.

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And it's just, work within the fun the

fundamentals of what we know to be true

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for the last, 80 years of marketing.

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Brett Deister: So what I'm hearing is

that when PR gets a hit or eventually

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gets a hit, the marketers and the creative

ads should be like, okay, let's create

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ads within the website of the new site.

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So we can maybe target them a little bit

better, or at least they'll see our ad.

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We can, it'll be like, oh, maybe

I'll actually buy that at 20%

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coupon, or whatever you wanna

do for an introductory price.

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Robert Brill: It's a

couple of things, right?

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So a person who understands that your

product exists because they read an

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article in a publication, that's great.

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So number one, you hope they visit your

website and now you can do remarketing.

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Number two, you use Meta's machine

learning algorithm to say, people

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who are now interested in my product

or service, they should get the

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ad that tells 'em to purchase.

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That's a little bit of black box

stuff there, so I don't directly

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control it, but the training.

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Helps tune that system for

the benefit of the business.

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But yeah, the PR by itself it really

just depends on the strategy, right?

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Like we talked to a company recently

and they earned lots of money,

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millions of dollars in investment

in crowdfunding investment

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because of PR and relationships.

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Like PR serves a purpose.

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The purpose for PR is to ensure that

people who have the money understand that

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you're doing something real and it's big.

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You're not messing around.

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Because it's hard to get

into a big publication.

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It's expensive.

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So by being there you've

ushered in a level of creativity

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credibility for your business.

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But impressions alone

aren't gonna drive sales.

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So our job is to take all of

the assets as advertisers.

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Our job is to take all of the assets that

exist in the marketplace and assemble them

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in such a way that we can use advertising

tools, data technology, algorithms.

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To deliver a compelling message

to a person right at the moment

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where they're most where it

will most resonate with them.

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And is that compelling

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Brett Deister: message differ

from different platforms?

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Because I don't think the message is

gonna be the same from Facebook to

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YouTube to TikTok to X slash Twitter.

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Is it gonna be like, are you

gonna tailor it a little bit?

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Robert Brill: Yeah, absolutely.

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The delivery, what we do for

a lot of campaigns that we

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see work is the following.

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Creative testing on meta.

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Take the learning from your

All Star ad, propagate those

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learnings across all the creative.

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Now you do Google ads, it's just

gonna be the text component of it.

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You might on YouTube, take the best

static image, turn it into a video.

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Because you've tested a bunch of things

and now you put that one video derived off

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of your best ad on YouTube, which you can

also use on meta, by the way, too, right?

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Meta's good for video.

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So it's a, it's about this fortuitous

like flywheel effect where you

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know, advertising at the very least,

advertising needs to perform and

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needs to drive leads or sales.

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But secondly, it needs

to inform your business.

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So the result of all this is.

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Advertising needs to get, serve

you in two or three different ways.

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It needs to deliver ads, it

needs to create demand, and it

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needs to inform your business.

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It needs to, then the creative needs

to inform other channels, and so as

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a result, you start having $1 spent.

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It's it's like having $3 being spent,

but you only have to spend it once

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because you get so many learnings out

of all these different components.

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Brett Deister: And then,

another component is basically.

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Our attention span.

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Our attention span has gotten shorter

and shorter through the decades.

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I think TikTok, it's like half a

second most of the time if they

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will actually watch a video or not.

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Does that play a role with your ads as

well as figuring out what will give them

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the biggest hit in the shortest amount of

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Robert Brill: time?

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Absolutely.

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The best example for me

on that is movie trailers.

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So you may have noticed the trend

on movie trailers is they will show

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you the entire, all the major hits

major like pulses of the movie in

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one and a half to three seconds.

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It'll show all the action, all the

drama, all the things that are gonna get

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you excited in the first three seconds

because they know, like you have that

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amount of time to keep people engaged.

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And then you see the opening for the

trailer, which is, the slow intro

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fade in, and then you go through two

and a half minutes of the trailer.

314

: 00:17:19

And the reason that, and every business

should be thinking like that, what is

315

: 00:17:23

gonna, what can I say, what's the most

interesting part of this story, right?

316

: 00:17:27

Because at the end of the

day, we're all storytelling.

317

: 00:17:29

What's the most interesting part

of the story that I can share that

318

: 00:17:33

will hook people in and buy my

way into their attention for the

319

: 00:17:38

next 10 seconds, 30 seconds, two

minutes, whatever the case is.

320

: 00:17:44

So it's

321

: 00:17:44

Brett Deister: almost like PR is

infecting a lot of the other spaces.

322

: 00:17:48

'cause PR especially their

press releases is all about the

323

: 00:17:51

most important stuff on top.

324

: 00:17:53

And then the filler on the bottom

and it feels like it's going

325

: 00:17:56

towards that direction again.

326

: 00:17:57

Which most important, like for your

ads, most important stuff on top.

327

: 00:18:01

And then everything goes down ascending.

328

: 00:18:05

Robert Brill: Yeah, you gotta have

videos that, that hook the user in.

329

: 00:18:08

And you see a lot of

great hooks on TikTok.

330

: 00:18:10

One of the things that I'm working on

with, so we, we make TikTok content.

331

: 00:18:14

It's mostly me talking about

marketing and advertising challenges

332

: 00:18:18

and capabilities, et cetera.

333

: 00:18:20

And one of the things I need

to get better, because I

334

: 00:18:21

remember I'm a numbers guy.

335

: 00:18:22

Like I look at Excel

documents and PowerPoints.

336

: 00:18:25

I don't, I'm not good at Photoshop.

337

: 00:18:27

I'm not great at Photoshop.

338

: 00:18:28

I'm.

339

: 00:18:29

Barely, I'm barely hanging on

in Photoshop, but like Adobe

340

: 00:18:32

Premier and all that stuff, I

don't know how to use very well.

341

: 00:18:35

So I'm getting better at the

art of it all, which is how do

342

: 00:18:39

I meet people where they're at?

343

: 00:18:40

How do I talk to people in a way?

344

: 00:18:43

I can talk all day about the seven best

practices for Google Ads, but the person

345

: 00:18:48

on the other end may not realize they

need it because they don't realize.

346

: 00:18:53

I haven't met them where they're at.

347

: 00:18:54

They're just like, my

Google ads aren't working.

348

: 00:18:57

Facebook doesn't work for me.

349

: 00:18:58

Advertising doesn't work for my business.

350

: 00:19:01

It's like I need to start

there with the storytelling.

351

: 00:19:04

'cause that's the hook, that's the

engaging part for the user, not how

352

: 00:19:08

to make your Google Ads perform better

because they just think advertising

353

: 00:19:12

doesn't even work for them to start.

354

: 00:19:15

That's probably incorrect.

355

: 00:19:16

They're probably just not getting

the right people to think about their

356

: 00:19:20

Brett Deister: business.

357

: 00:19:22

It almost feels like you almost

need to do one of those terrible

358

: 00:19:25

infomercial things where nothing

works and it's all black and white.

359

: 00:19:28

And then you come to the rescue,

wrap 'em out with your stuff,

360

: 00:19:31

Robert Brill: try to pick up the phone

and the cord is wrapped around my neck.

361

: 00:19:34

Yeah, that's funny.

362

: 00:19:37

Brett Deister: But for you,

you could also look at cap cut.

363

: 00:19:40

It actually is developed

or was developed by dance.

364

: 00:19:42

It's their own video

editing, which is great.

365

: 00:19:44

I didn't realize that.

366

: 00:19:45

Yeah.

367

: 00:19:47

Robert Brill: Yeah I've it

seems very complicated to me.

368

: 00:19:50

Brett Deister: It's actually,

I've heard it's pretty easy.

369

: 00:19:52

I use Da Vinci Resolve, so I don't

touch Adobe products anymore.

370

: 00:19:56

Yeah.

371

: 00:19:57

But I, I've it's actually pretty

free Da Vinci actually resolve

372

: 00:20:01

is, they do have a free version of

their own too, so you can figure out

373

: 00:20:05

different ways with minimal budget.

374

: 00:20:08

But yeah, try cap cut.

375

: 00:20:10

If you're trying, if you're having

issues with Premier, you're having.

376

: 00:20:13

Because Premier is good, but you need

to know what you're doing to actually

377

: 00:20:17

really effectively use it legit.

378

: 00:20:19

So

379

: 00:20:19

Robert Brill: in when the pandemic

happened in like March April,

380

: 00:20:22

2020, I was like, all right,

what am I gonna do with my time?

381

: 00:20:25

And, there was, I was like, okay, I

need to get, I need to keep things busy.

382

: 00:20:28

We were, a lot of our business

was staffed with live events,

383

: 00:20:32

so all that just shut down.

384

: 00:20:34

And so I was like I'll

learn Adobe Premier Pro.

385

: 00:20:38

Holy freaking cow.

386

: 00:20:39

That was the hardest.

387

: 00:20:40

I had like such high aspirations

for what I was gonna know.

388

: 00:20:42

I was just like, I'm

just gonna film video.

389

: 00:20:44

And I made video and it would take

me like three, four hours to, to

390

: 00:20:49

edit like a two and a half minute.

391

: 00:20:52

Video.

392

: 00:20:53

Like I don't I can't, if that's the way

and the output looked like it took me

393

: 00:20:57

two minutes, but it it is, it's five

yearold, toddler like status of editing.

394

: 00:21:03

And I'm like, yeah, I

shouldn't be doing this.

395

: 00:21:05

This is this.

396

: 00:21:05

I've learned what I need to learn

and I've learned that I need to

397

: 00:21:08

pay someone to do this for me.

398

: 00:21:11

Brett Deister: Yeah, if you wanna try

out, I would say cap cut would probably

399

: 00:21:13

be the best for TikTok because it's made

by the people that made TikTok yeah.

400

: 00:21:17

Yeah.

401

: 00:21:18

Check that out.

402

: 00:21:18

I think it's pretty u it's more user

friendly than VER is, but I've been

403

: 00:21:23

using Resolve, and I know experts on

YouTube and I follow stuff on Discord for

404

: 00:21:28

Resolve, so I'm pretty good at Resolve,

but they're all pretty difficult if you

405

: 00:21:32

don't know what you're doing because

there is a learning curve to all of them.

406

: 00:21:35

But once you get 'em, it's

pretty easy after that.

407

: 00:21:38

Yeah.

408

: 00:21:39

Robert Brill: All right.

409

: 00:21:39

I'll check out Capco.

410

: 00:21:42

Brett Deister: Moving on

to actually advertising.

411

: 00:21:43

Do you think most businesses

common problem is the ROI

412

: 00:21:47

via the return on investment?

413

: 00:21:48

What is this really giving me?

414

: 00:21:50

Because people, the click through

rate is like one metric you can look

415

: 00:21:53

at, but it's really like, how are

you gonna move that needle and how

416

: 00:21:56

are you gonna justify this ad wing?

417

: 00:21:59

You may or may not have

the best analytics for it.

418

: 00:22:03

Robert Brill: The common problem

is they don't have a strategy and

419

: 00:22:05

they don't know what they're doing.

420

: 00:22:06

That's the problem.

421

: 00:22:08

That.

422

: 00:22:08

That's really just all it is.

423

: 00:22:10

So the strategy is your way of protecting

yourself against bad decisions.

424

: 00:22:16

It's your moat, it's your armor.

425

: 00:22:20

If you don't have a strategy, you

can get attacked at any moment.

426

: 00:22:23

And how do you get attacked?

427

: 00:22:25

Your sell?

428

: 00:22:25

The sellers come out to you and say, Hey,

you should buy this ad on the bus bench.

429

: 00:22:29

Which could be part of the strategy,

but if it's not part of the strategy,

430

: 00:22:32

you can easily say, no thank you.

431

: 00:22:34

The per the seller from, I think

it's called Thrive, used to be YPI

432

: 00:22:38

think they can come up to you and be

like, we're the best at everything.

433

: 00:22:41

And they're gonna, they might

have some strategy thinking I've

434

: 00:22:44

heard some good things about them.

435

: 00:22:45

But the point is, you as a business

owner need to have a plan for how

436

: 00:22:51

you're gonna grow your business.

437

: 00:22:52

And part of that plan is marketing

and advertising and that.

438

: 00:22:55

Plan needs a plan.

439

: 00:22:57

Like you need to know day in and day out,

how you're gonna spend your advertising

440

: 00:23:01

budget, why you're running on meta, and

why you're running on Google, and why

441

: 00:23:05

you're not running on TikTok or Twitter.

442

: 00:23:07

Because if you don't have that

plan, you're gonna be susceptible.

443

: 00:23:09

You'll read a headline.

444

: 00:23:10

Everyone's running on ads on LinkedIn.

445

: 00:23:12

You should be on LinkedIn.

446

: 00:23:13

Why is it part of your strategy?

447

: 00:23:16

My mother-in-law said that the guy on

the radio said radio ads are the best.

448

: 00:23:21

Okay, maybe, but is it

part of your strategy?

449

: 00:23:24

So the big problem companies have

is they don't have the fundamentals

450

: 00:23:30

down, which means they're making,

they're routinely making bad decisions.

451

: 00:23:34

That's the first step.

452

: 00:23:36

If you have a strategy, then

it's about the execution of it.

453

: 00:23:40

And the execution is

who's working on your ads?

454

: 00:23:43

Is it your cousin, thrive and yp.

455

: 00:23:46

They talk about everyone has a guy.

456

: 00:23:49

The guy is your first marketing pro.

457

: 00:23:51

Your cousin.

458

: 00:23:53

Your nephew your neighbor.

459

: 00:23:56

So everyone has a guy, but the guy

doesn't have expertise in this thing.

460

: 00:24:03

It's the, it's their hobby.

461

: 00:24:05

Or the guy might be a website guy,

but you need ads, but you aren't.

462

: 00:24:11

Versed enough to understand that the guy

who understands websites is not gonna

463

: 00:24:15

be the guy who's gonna be editing video

on Da Vinci Resolve, nor Photoshop.

464

: 00:24:20

And also running your

Google search campaigns.

465

: 00:24:22

Those are like five completely

separate skill sets.

466

: 00:24:26

So if you have a strategy, you

need to choose people who are.

467

: 00:24:31

Who understand how to drive

performance, who understand urgency,

468

: 00:24:35

who understand the ability to

provide context for your advertising.

469

: 00:24:39

What's working, what's not

working, how do you improve it?

470

: 00:24:42

And they need and you need

to have that strategy.

471

: 00:24:45

There's 1.4 million people on Upwork that

are categorized as sales and marketing.

472

: 00:24:50

There's a lot of people, anyone

can get into advertising.

473

: 00:24:54

All you need is a computer and internet.

474

: 00:24:57

A Facebook account or a Google account,

but you can't replicate experience.

475

: 00:25:01

You can take courses and certificates,

but you can't replicate experience.

476

: 00:25:06

That's why clients stay with us for

many years because, a lot of our work

477

: 00:25:09

is agencies who decide to work with

us to do their, to outsource their

478

: 00:25:13

media buying to us and advertisers too.

479

: 00:25:15

And so as a result, clients stay with us

for many years because we do good work.

480

: 00:25:19

Brett Deister: It seems like from

what you said, this first step is just

481

: 00:25:21

understanding your target audience.

482

: 00:25:23

If you're skewing younger, TikTok

actually may be better for you if

483

: 00:25:27

you're skewing, if older, LinkedIn,

Facebook, maybe even Twitter slash x.

484

: 00:25:32

I think that's a middle of the

road, more demographic, but that

485

: 00:25:35

actually may be better for you.

486

: 00:25:38

So if you don't understand who's

buying from you, your ads could

487

: 00:25:42

be worthless 'cause you don't

know who's who you can target.

488

: 00:25:45

Robert Brill: And you don't know

you're delivering the wrong message.

489

: 00:25:48

So typically, let's going into the

fundamentals of the channel mix.

490

: 00:25:54

The fundamentals are.

491

: 00:25:56

Meta has the best a, sorry.

492

: 00:25:59

The fundamentals are meta has the

best algorithm in the marketplace.

493

: 00:26:03

By the way, don't dis distinguish

between Instagram ads and Facebook ads.

494

: 00:26:08

It's just one source of inventory.

495

: 00:26:09

The algorithm works the same on

both, and they work together.

496

: 00:26:12

So think of it as one source of inventory.

497

: 00:26:14

That's number one.

498

: 00:26:17

Number two Twitter's

good for entertainment.

499

: 00:26:21

Even some B2B things, we

run some B2B on TikTok and.

500

: 00:26:25

Anything that you might be interested

in for people up to, I think the age of

501

: 00:26:28

50 or 60, it wanes at the top there, but

but relevant, but does especially well

502

: 00:26:34

for e-commerce and and entertainment.

503

: 00:26:36

Twitter, good for tech, technology

journalism, direct to consumer

504

: 00:26:42

brands you definitely can take

advantage of the craziness that is.

505

: 00:26:46

X or Twitter.

506

: 00:26:48

I see some products that like I

wouldn't see anywhere else because

507

: 00:26:51

they're on Twitter, they're on X.

508

: 00:26:53

YouTube is good for

anything video related.

509

: 00:26:56

I.

510

: 00:26:57

Where you can demonstrate your product

or service in a video, that's good.

511

: 00:27:01

Google search is good if your

product or service can solve

512

: 00:27:05

an easily searchable problem.

513

: 00:27:07

So I need video editing.

514

: 00:27:09

Okay, you're out for video.

515

: 00:27:10

Editing is up there.

516

: 00:27:11

That's a very one-to-One

dynamic between the consumer's

517

: 00:27:15

challenge and what you offer.

518

: 00:27:18

If your product or service is

less is more complex, is more high

519

: 00:27:23

consideration, Google could be

a little more difficult to work.

520

: 00:27:28

But really at the end of the day,

you've, as a marketer, you've

521

: 00:27:31

gotta start more consumer journeys.

522

: 00:27:33

I.

523

: 00:27:35

Scoop up that, that interest with

ads, that scoop up that interest on.

524

: 00:27:39

Meta would be good for generating

new consumer interest and Google

525

: 00:27:43

ads are good for scooping up

and turning that into a sale.

526

: 00:27:47

That's the way I think of it.

527

: 00:27:48

Banners on across sites works really

well for remarketing, for reach

528

: 00:27:54

and frequency for lower costs, but

keeping your brand top of mind.

529

: 00:27:58

So that's how we look

530

: 00:27:59

Brett Deister: at the marketplace.

531

: 00:28:01

And this kind of goes

into like the AB testing.

532

: 00:28:03

Should you like AB test on say meta

and then figure out where else if you

533

: 00:28:07

need to be on meta, but how should you

AB test it because, and how should you

534

: 00:28:12

optimize your ads through AB testing?

535

: 00:28:14

Because most of marketing

is like really testing out.

536

: 00:28:18

You're like almost like a little

scientist going, does this work?

537

: 00:28:20

Does that work?

538

: 00:28:21

So how should you effectively AB

test your ads to make them effective?

539

: 00:28:27

Robert Brill: AB test really

implies testing two things.

540

: 00:28:30

We test, like that creative

testing framework that I broke out.

541

: 00:28:35

You're testing 125 different

variations at any given time.

542

: 00:28:40

So it's not two, it's 125.

543

: 00:28:42

And the way you do that is you

start by creating five ads.

544

: 00:28:45

So five headlines, five

images, five primary text, you

545

: 00:28:50

disassemble all those elements.

546

: 00:28:52

You run a control and variable test.

547

: 00:28:55

On 15 different elements.

548

: 00:28:58

So with those 50 different elements,

as an aside, you multiply them in all

549

: 00:29:02

the different possible variations.

550

: 00:29:03

You have 125 different variations,

but you only created five ads.

551

: 00:29:08

And then you cu down to the top 18, 20

ad variations, even as low as six or 12.

552

: 00:29:17

Then you turn on optimization to your

objective, whether it's lead or sale.

553

: 00:29:23

And then for the next two, two and

a half weeks, you take those 20 ads

554

: 00:29:27

variations up to 20 ad variations.

555

: 00:29:29

You let Facebook determine which

is the best ad, which drives which

556

: 00:29:33

combination, drives the most sales,

the most engagement, whatever the

557

: 00:29:37

case is, and you'll know in a few

weeks, which is your best ad creative.

558

: 00:29:43

And that's.

559

: 00:29:44

How you have a perpetual cycle of

understanding who your customers

560

: 00:29:49

are and then take those ads and

perpetuate propagate all the learnings

561

: 00:29:54

across your different channels.

562

: 00:29:57

Brett Deister: Got you.

563

: 00:29:58

And then looking ahead to 2024,

what new trends you're gonna be

564

: 00:30:01

seeing in digital advertising

is gonna be more reliance on ai?

565

: 00:30:05

Is it gonna be more

new, different formats?

566

: 00:30:07

Is it gonna be more

podcasting advertising?

567

: 00:30:10

What are you seeing?

568

: 00:30:12

Robert Brill: Yeah, I think just

like this time last year was when

569

: 00:30:17

AI hit the scene with chat GPT in

a big way to like many consumers.

570

: 00:30:22

My understanding is chat, GPT

has been around in some form

571

: 00:30:25

for like many years, but I.

572

: 00:30:27

To consumers or to, to the general public.

573

: 00:30:30

We're still early stages on that,

but a lot of people can use it now.

574

: 00:30:33

I think the ability to create chat agents

on GPT and to get to monetize it is gonna

575

: 00:30:39

be a huge win for any type of business.

576

: 00:30:42

And you're gonna see the adoption

of more AI across enterprise brands.

577

: 00:30:47

So AI definitely very interesting.

578

: 00:30:49

There's various initiatives to

deprecate the cookie which makes.

579

: 00:30:53

Visibility by Google specifically

to, which makes it even harder

580

: 00:30:57

to track conversion activity.

581

: 00:30:58

So we're gonna pay attention to that.

582

: 00:31:01

But at the end of the day, I'm not

I'm focused on the fundamentals.

583

: 00:31:05

A lot of our business is

just about the fundamentals.

584

: 00:31:07

Like we're doing things that were

like, it's not sexy, like dynamic ads.

585

: 00:31:13

Dynamic advertising has been around for

a while, but holy freaking cow, it works.

586

: 00:31:18

It works really well to sell

like tickets, for example.

587

: 00:31:21

And there's different types of dynamic

creative optimization that's something

588

: 00:31:25

different than what you do on Facebook.

589

: 00:31:27

But the point is we're

really focused on using.

590

: 00:31:33

The tried and true methods to grow

businesses we're not interested in.

591

: 00:31:37

We're not.

592

: 00:31:38

It, I remember working at big

agencies, when I started my career,

593

: 00:31:41

I was working at Universal McCann.

594

: 00:31:42

We were really pushed, okay, how do

we what are we testing this time?

595

: 00:31:46

Like we bought the first I.

596

: 00:31:48

Takeover on MySpace, that type of thing.

597

: 00:31:50

Like, how do we test these new channels?

598

: 00:31:53

I remember we bought like some sort of

like ESPN mobile takeover and holy cow,

599

: 00:31:57

that was the most, I think it was for

like lords of Dogtown in: 2005

600

: 00:32:03

That was like, we worked like

three months to, to buy that ad.

601

: 00:32:07

It was so incredibly complicated.

602

: 00:32:09

Our campaigns need to perform.

603

: 00:32:11

They need leads and sales,

clicks, likes engagement.

604

: 00:32:13

Not so much because clicks,

likes engagement, comments,

605

: 00:32:16

shares don't pay the bills.

606

: 00:32:19

So we focus on what works and

we leave behind what doesn't.

607

: 00:32:22

Brett Deister: Also it seems

like dynamic ad insertions has

608

: 00:32:25

crept up into podcasting too.

609

: 00:32:27

There is dynamic types of ad insertions,

so it's a tried and true sector of

610

: 00:32:33

ads, but it hits a different types

of industries for content as well.

611

: 00:32:38

Robert Brill: Yeah, I think advertising

on podcasts is really interesting because

612

: 00:32:41

you get the resonance of PR and you get

the direct scalability of advertising,

613

: 00:32:47

and it's like a nice combination.

614

: 00:32:49

Brett Deister: It seems like from

the data podcasters are a little bit

615

: 00:32:54

more, are more trusted than in than

social media influencers right now.

616

: 00:32:57

I feel like it's 'cause the

trust factor and influencers have

617

: 00:33:01

messed it up over the years where

people don't trust them as much.

618

: 00:33:04

But that's why I've seen from the

data, I could be wrong and some

619

: 00:33:08

podcasters are gonna mess it up where

trust is lost for all podcasting.

620

: 00:33:13

Robert Brill: I think, at the end of

the day, like if you listen to a podcast

621

: 00:33:16

routinely, you get to know the individual

and it feels like you're you know them

622

: 00:33:20

in a way that you know your friends.

623

: 00:33:22

I.

624

: 00:33:23

It's unique for the channel.

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: 00:33:25

It's a very unique opportunity.

626

: 00:33:26

Look, 20 years ago the distribution

systems that we can take advantage

627

: 00:33:31

of for $50 a month costs, tens of

millions of dollars to implement.

628

: 00:33:35

And we all knew them as NBCA, BC and CBS.

629

: 00:33:39

So the fact that we can even have

these conversations is it's a

630

: 00:33:42

testament to how far technology has

come and also a testament to what

631

: 00:33:46

we humans love the most, and that's.

632

: 00:33:49

Connection with other humans.

633

: 00:33:51

Brett Deister: And where

can people find you online?

634

: 00:33:53

Robert Brill: Absolutely.

635

: 00:33:54

Brill media.co, B as

in boy, RILL, media.co.

636

: 00:34:01

If you wanna learn more about creative

testing and the capabilities drop down,

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: 00:34:05

it says creative testing, go there.

638

: 00:34:06

The URL is brill

media.co/creative-testing.

639

: 00:34:11

And if you wanna reach out, go to the

contact us, fill out the form, you'll be

640

: 00:34:14

prompted to schedule time on my calendar

if you wanna talk about your strategy.

641

: 00:34:18

Brett Deister: Thank you,

Robert, for joining Digital

642

: 00:34:21

Coffee Marketing Brands here.

643

: 00:34:22

Knowledge on Digital Ads.

644

: 00:34:26

Robert Brill: Thanks Brad.

645

: 00:34:26

Appreciate it.

646

: 00:34:27

And thank you

647

: 00:34:28

for

648

: 00:34:28

Brett Deister: listening.

649

: 00:34:28

As always, be subscribed to Digital

Coffee, all your favorite podcasting

650

: 00:34:32

app with a five star review.

651

: 00:34:34

And join us next time as we talk

to another great thought leader

652

: 00:34:37

in the PR and marketing industry.

653

: 00:34:39

Alright guys, stay safe,

understanding your ads and get to

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: 00:34:42

testing and making great ads later.