Episode 33
Revolutionizing Podcasting: Why Your Strategy Needs a PR Reboot
Podcasting needs a PR reboot, and in this episode of Digital Coffee: Marketing Brew, Brett Deister and Megan Dougherty dive deep into why humanizing your content could be the game-changing strategy you’ve been seeking. They explore the evolving landscape of podcasting, discussing essential metrics that matter beyond just downloads and the importance of understanding your audience's behavior across different platforms. Megan shares insights on how businesses can leverage podcasts for relationship building and thought leadership while navigating the complexities of AI in content creation. With a focus on the future, they consider the balance between audio and video formats and the role of live sessions in the podcasting ecosystem. Join Brett and Megan as they provide actionable advice for integrating podcasting into your marketing strategy effectively.
Takeaways:
- Podcasting is evolving rapidly, and businesses should prioritize understanding their unique metrics for success beyond just downloads.
- Building relationships through podcasting can be more valuable than cold hard metrics, fostering trust and community engagement.
- AI is transforming podcast production, but the human element remains essential for authentic connections with audiences.
- Businesses need to approach podcasting strategically, assessing its potential impact on their overall marketing and communication goals.
- Experimenting with guest appearances before launching your own podcast can help gauge interest and fit for your brand.
- A solid podcasting strategy can enhance brand awareness, drive traffic, and support content distribution across various platforms.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Starbucks
- Folgers
- Corsair
- Elgato
- Road
- Mackie
- Adobe
- Final Cut Pro
- Capcut
- DaVinci Resolve
- Blackmagic
💬 Want to get involved? Leave us a comment, give us a 'like,' and follow us for more insights. Join our Locals for lively discussions, and if you've got questions, email us at bdeister@digitalcafe.media!
👕 Check out our merch: www.digitalcafe.store
🌟 Review the Podcast if you loved this episode and share it with fellow marketers who could benefit from a treasure trove of podcasting wisdom. Tune in to "Digital Coffee: Marketing Brew" and let's brew up some success together!
Transcript
That's good.
Brett:And welcome to a new episode of Digital Coffee Marketing Brew, and I'm your host, Brett Deisser.
Brett:This week we talk about podcasting, and specifically more on the back end, analytics side of it, the things that we all shudder as podcasters because we're trying to figure out how our podcast is doing, and we only think it's actually about the downloads, which spoiler, it's not.
Brett:But we'll get into that a little bit more.
Brett:But I have Megan with me, and she's a digital marketing strategist, and she has a background in online business development and course creation as well.
Brett:And she is a really good host to have for podcasting.
Brett:She is podcasting for other clients as well, but welcome to the show, Megan.
Megan:Brett, thank you so much for having me.
Megan:It is a pleasure to be here.
Megan:With all of your Star wars figurines in the background, it makes me feel right at home.
Brett:They're actually Lego helmets, so, yeah, I've Lego helmets.
Brett:Yeah.
Megan:Even better.
Brett:Yeah.
Brett:So the first question, that's all my guest is, are you a coffee or tea drinker?
Megan:Oh, I am a coffee drinker all the way.
Brett:Do you have any specific ones you like, like light, medium, dark, Starbucks?
Brett:I don't judge you too much.
Megan:Actually, it's almost a little embarrassing because I have a passion for cheap coffee.
Megan:Give me the diner coffee, the, you know, the swill.
Megan:Just load it up with cream and I'm good to go.
Megan:So percolator all the way.
Brett:So like Folgers.
Brett:That's what I see as, like, the almost the bottom line.
Megan:They switched to fair trade for ethical reasons.
Megan:But, like, the closer it tastes to Folgers, the happier I'll be.
Brett:No worries.
Brett:If you really want to go even, like crazy, like, bottom the barrel brewing method, you could always do cowboy coffee.
Megan:I could do.
Megan:I could try cowboy coffee.
Megan:If I ever camp, I'll try cowboy coffee.
Brett:Let's just say you boil the beans with the grounds with the water, and then you pour it into your cup so you actually get the grounds with the water.
Megan:That might be a little too intense for me.
Brett:There you go.
Brett:That's what actual cowboy coffee.
Brett:That's what it actually is.
Brett:Because back then, I think cowboys didn't really have anything, so they just boiled it with the water, with it in their pot, and they just poured it.
Megan:And now I understand why they called it a cup of mud.
Brett:Yeah.
Megan:It all becomes clear.
Brett:Oh, yeah.
Brett:Anyways, I gave a brief explanation about your expertise, but can you realize a little bit more about what you do Absolutely.
Megan: ast production agency back in: Megan:Mine was in digital marketing.
Megan:So we said, what can we do with these skills?
Megan:And we could create podcasts for businesses for them to use as part of their marketing campaigns.
Megan:And we started doing that, and it's been a lot of fun ever since then.
Megan:And over the years, we've gotten better at helping podcasts actually leverage helping businesses actually leverage podcasts and really dug deep into the patterns and the strategy and the ways to optimize around this.
Megan:And it's been such a great time to figure out how we can attribute the value that podcasts brings in, like, a clear and meaningful way.
Megan:And because we're nerds and also possibly workaholics, we decided to start doing industry research about podcasting for business.
Megan:Now we hosted an annual conference about podcasting for business.
Megan:So we're really about podcasting for business.
Brett:All right, what's your conference?
Megan:So people actually know it's the Podcasting for business conference.
Brett:All right.
Brett:That's a pretty easy name to understand.
Megan:You can find out about it@podcastingforbusiness.com right?
Megan:Hopefully.
Megan:Memorable.
Brett:Very memorable, actually.
Brett:Good job on the branding.
Megan:Best domain I've ever gotten my entire life.
Brett:Yeah.
Brett:Try to get digital coffee.com as a domain, you're going to be spending about 10 grand.
Megan:I didn't spend that much, but it was more than I'd ever spent on a domain before.
Brett:Yeah, I did not spend that much.
Brett:But anyways, moving on.
Brett:So podcasting has gone through its evolution.
Brett: e first podcasting was around: Brett:So it's not super new, but it's not super old like the Internet or emailing.
Brett:And what has changed in podcasting?
Brett:Like, people are probably new in their.
Brett:Or marketers themselves are like my bots telling me to go get into podcasting.
Brett:So what is new in podcasting space right now?
Megan:I think, as you said, it's new.
Megan:And it's also really constantly and quickly changing.
Megan:There are always one company buying up another or new tech coming out to make this element easier or that element easier.
Megan:But I think that the biggest thing that's changed in the last couple of years is that people who maybe are not on the front bleeding edge of tech or even who consider themselves very techy, they're starting to take it more seriously as a platform.
Megan:Maybe there's enough saturation of people who know what podcasting is, who listen to things that they enjoy, that they can see other podcasts in their industry.
Megan:And I think maybe this is something that we should do too.
Megan:So I think it's just growing in acceptance as how people say, oh, this is actually a serious way to communicate and it's a serious part of our marketing.
Megan:And I think that's the change I'm really happy to see.
Megan:And it is an easier change to manage than video, which perhaps we could talk about later as well, because that's another big thing that's changing all the time.
Brett:Yeah, and gaming, peripheral gaming companies are getting into it too.
Brett:So like Corsair bought Elgato and they've been coming out with really great products for it.
Brett:Road is merging with Mackie.
Brett:That, that happened a few months ago.
Brett:Yeah, they.
Brett:They actually merged with Mackie.
Brett:So they're becoming like a huge powerhouse.
Brett:And Road's like the number one.
Brett:It's.
Brett:It's the number one audio company right now for podcasting.
Brett:Everybody knows Road.
Brett:Everybody understands what Road does.
Brett:So in terms of podcasting, what I've always heard is that it was first it was your 30 day downloads, then it, now it's your seven day download.
Brett:So what is the metric that we should be caring about?
Megan:That depends on your business.
Megan:Now, I can't speak to running a podcast as a business very much and I can't speak to running a podcast for a passion project.
Megan:For those downloads are going to be a lot more meaningful, I think, than they are for a business.
Megan:But if you are, if you're a PR company, finance law, healthcare downloads can be great.
Megan:They can indicate how much market penetration you're getting and how much your reach is growing.
Megan:But that doesn't really help you with your core business activities.
Megan:Does like it's peripheral to that.
Megan:It doesn't necessarily make an impact on your bottom line.
Megan:So the trick is figuring out for an individual business, what are the metrics, one that a podcast can contribute to that are going to be the most meaningful?
Megan:And that might be relationship building.
Megan:That might be in creating content that can be dispersed throughout an ecosystem.
Megan:It might be converting people from one stage of the buying journey to another.
Megan:It could be establishing thought leadership or engaging an audience you already have.
Megan:So figuring out the high level, what is actually meaningful to the business, how is the podcast helping with that?
Megan:And then within that umbrella of an archetype, an overall goal, what are the specific things that tell me that it's working or that we need to change?
Megan:The answer is very frustrating.
Megan:It depends.
Megan:That's very sorry.
Brett:It's the one thing that podcasters always Goes well, it depends on, on, on a few things.
Brett:And since podcasting 2.0 is eventually coming out, a lot of the other sites are eventually adding to it.
Brett:Do you think we're going to get better stats?
Brett:Because the stats right now are.
Brett:They're lackluster, to be honest with you.
Brett:No podcaster trusts, barely trusts their own stats because no one really knows how much listens you really getting because it seems like they're overcompensating and giving you too much.
Brett:Now we have Apple going.
Brett:We're not really going to allow people to auto download anymore.
Brett:So your numbers are going down too.
Brett:And so podcasters trying to market themselves to other businesses to get them to sponsor it, they're going to be like our numbers are okay.
Brett:And then it's hard to get them.
Brett:How do they do that?
Brett:And how can.
Brett:What can businesses understand about where to sponsor it?
Brett:Because that those are the two things.
Brett:How can podcasters get sponsors and how can the sponsor.
Brett:The businesses sponsor good podcasts?
Brett:Because you can buy LinkedIn gives me.
Brett:I get so many people going, I can help boost your podcast numbers.
Brett:And I never talk.
Brett:Oh my God, it's five a day sometimes.
Brett:And I'm like, stop contacting me.
Brett:I don't want your services.
Megan:So in terms of a podcast that is looking to monetize via sponsorships, kind of, again, that's not my particular area of expertise because that is very much a growth strategy and it is very much a promotional strategy with the aim of building an audience that you can then sell to to potential sponsors.
Megan:As a company looking to sponsor a podcast, one thing that has stayed really true over time, looking at the Nielsen and the Edison research that comes out every year, there is really good brand recall from brands advertising in podcasts.
Megan:So if you are working on an awareness campaign, podcasting can be a really solid way to go.
Megan:If you can get that good sort of demographic data from the podcast that you're looking at sponsoring and before even asking having the data question, which can be.
Megan:It's a step or two into the relationship.
Megan:Listen to the podcast.
Megan:Do you like it?
Megan:Would you like to be associated with what they're saying?
Megan:Do you agree with what they're saying?
Megan:Do you?
Megan:Do your values seem aligned?
Megan:How are they promoting on social media?
Megan:Do they ever promote their sponsors?
Megan:So I'd really look at how the podcast that you're considering sponsoring treats other people who sponsor them and treats the community that they've cultivated.
Megan:And if you like what it's almost certainly worth at least an experiment.
Megan:Make sure.
Megan:You set up your links and your tracking, get a custom landing page, make sure you're able to attribute the traffic that comes from the show and be able to count that accurately.
Megan:Experiment with it, see if it ends up being really good for your business.
Megan:And it'll probably vary a lot by industry, might vary by time of year.
Megan:Look around and maybe talk to other people in your industry.
Megan:Have you had expense like good experiences running podcast marketing campaigns or podcast advertising campaigns?
Brett:And I would say ask for the downloads just to kind of get a picture of like where the consistency of it.
Brett:But also would you recommend.
Brett:And I always say this, if business ever contacts me, it's going to be a six months to a year commitment.
Brett:Because if you think you're going to do like a few months, you're going to gain no traction.
Brett:Like podcasting is not a quick thing.
Brett:It's a very long building relationship.
Brett:So should they understand that going into it like it's a six month to a year and six months is the bare minimum to a year type of a thing?
Megan:Do you mean as a podcast sponsor or as creating your own podcast sponsor?
Megan:That I'm not really sure.
Megan:I don't know what how long of an engagement it might take.
Megan:I guess it depends on.
Megan:Do you get that one right listener?
Megan:Because if, let's say your goal for sponsoring a podcast is maybe you do want to get new services, clients, say, for your consulting practice.
Megan:If the right person listens to that ad and they hear it four times, they're like, maybe I'll check it out and they buy.
Megan:And that's a $20,000 deal.
Megan:Your campaign was a success.
Megan:It only took one.
Megan:It was maybe on the fourth time they heard it.
Megan:Will that happen?
Megan:Who knows?
Megan:So I'd plan to test it out for a little while.
Megan:But if you're at least traffic, if you're getting some kind of indication that it's working, I'd say it's worth continuing so you can optimize and refine and split.
Megan:Test your landing page, see if you can get that working a little more.
Megan:But yeah, I think it's always wise to at least give something enough time to work.
Megan:I for podcasting, I generally recommend in quarters, give something at least a quarter before you really look at the stats or make decisions.
Megan:But I think it really is down to is it going to work?
Megan:Well, what are we trying to make it work for?
Megan:What's the goal?
Megan:Is it traffic?
Megan:Is it awareness?
Megan:Is it brand we call?
Megan:Is it more people knowing our name on a survey?
Megan:How Long.
Megan:Each of those is going to take is going to be different.
Megan:So getting really clear about what does success mean?
Megan:What does working mean?
Megan:I think is probably the most important thing to do at the beginning of any campaign.
Brett:And would you recommend businesses be guests first on podcasts and then see if they want to do their own?
Brett:Because I get.
Brett:People are like podcasting, it's easy to do.
Brett:And I'm like, wait a minute here.
Brett:It's not as easy as you think it is.
Brett:There actually is a lot of time to be spent editing it and making sure that it sounds good.
Brett:Because you could have not good audio video, but you.
Brett:But if you have terrible audio, no one's listening to it because audio is the first thing people go, no, I can't do this anymore.
Megan:Oh, it's so true.
Megan:And yeah, I very often recommend people try a guesting strategy before they start doing.
Megan:Start creating their own one.
Megan:It lets you know if you like the format.
Megan:If you hate it, people are going to hear it in your voice.
Megan:So it's really nice to test it out in a way where somebody else pays for the production.
Megan:So you can get a lot of the same benefits from being a guest as you can from having your own show.
Megan:You get exposure to new audience.
Megan:You get content that you can use and refer people back to.
Megan:All sorts of good things can happen for you still get to make lots of wonderful new relationships.
Megan:But it is a lot lower risk and a lot lower of a time investment than running your own show.
Megan:Of course, you don't get as much control.
Megan:You don't get to choose the topics.
Megan:You don't get to choose distribution for when you're a guest.
Megan:So there's trade offs.
Megan:But it is a really nice way to tend the waters a little bit to see if you can stand hearing your voice recorded.
Megan:It's a nice way to get things going.
Brett:About two years to get okay with my voice.
Brett:Listening to it like I do it like it was really hard.
Megan:Yeah.
Megan:Because we sound so different than we sound in our heads.
Megan:It's such a shock to hear your voice and just.
Megan:Is that really how other people hear me?
Megan:It's.
Megan:I had a similar experience and then talking about.
Brett:Because podcasting has gone into.
Brett:It was audio only because Internet and bit rates and everything.
Brett:Now it's to video and now eventually it's probably going to be live as well.
Brett:Live.
Brett:Some podcasters are experimenting with it, but they're not doing a lot of that.
Brett:But what I've read from the stats is that people in the morning the afternoon they listen to the audio, but at night they watch it.
Brett:So should the business be cognizant of that and understand, because I know a lot of people don't like to be on video.
Brett:So as a guest too, on a business strategy or marketing strategy, should they understand that they probably will be on video at the same time.
Megan:A lot of the times, yes.
Megan:Video is getting more and more popular, more and more people are using YouTube as their primary listening platform and video of different lengths is.
Megan:It's all just.
Megan:There's more and more and more videos.
Megan:Whether that is, like I say, you should be ready, you should be spiritually prepared to be filmed.
Megan:If you're going to be out podcast guesting, that's just the way it goes.
Megan:But when it comes down to deciding if you want to include a video strategy in your own, we're not at the point where you need to yet.
Megan:As Brett Making yourself sound good and making yourself look good whilst being recording, they're two different skills.
Megan:One is a lot easier to learn, one is a lot less expensive to have produced.
Megan:So it's much better to focus on getting good quality audio than mediocre video.
Megan:A video style podcast.
Megan:I've taken to calling them Audio First Podcasts and Video First Podcasts.
Megan:So if the kind of show is designed to be seen, then you know you are going to want to invest in good studio space and good lighting as well as good audio and getting a good video editor.
Megan:For most businesses that's a lot of overkill and you will get almost as much benefit, if not as much benefit from focusing on creating a really good, tight, well produced audio show.
Megan:You still get the relationships, you can still get content to share.
Megan:On social media, you get all these good things without the friction that can come from having to integrate video video into your workflows and also communicate to guests about.
Megan:Because there's more friction when it comes to asking, hey, will you come be filmed for 30 minutes?
Megan:When maybe that's not something you're comfortable with either.
Megan:Whereas audio, it's oh yeah, no camera off, we're just going to have a nice conversation.
Megan:It's a lot easier to have that happen.
Megan:So it kind of comes down to the overall strategy.
Megan:If you've got, say, company backing behind you and they're like, we've got tens of thousands of dollars to invest in this project, make us look shiny, go for it.
Megan:But for a lot of businesses starting a little smaller, starting on one sort of medium is better and then adding another one later as you're More comfortable.
Brett:Yeah, you'd probably hire like an expert with me telling you what tools to have because I've researched this to death.
Brett:There is Adobe, which I always find funny that businesses are only about Adobe or Final Cut Pro.
Brett:But there's Capcut, which is owned by TikTok, which is a free one to use.
Brett:There's also DaVinci Resolve, which I personally use, that is owned by Blackmagic and they're a lot less expensive.
Brett:And what I love about DaVinci resolve is that it comes with your VFX built in, comes with your daw, which is your digital audio workspace built in.
Brett:And they're all good.
Brett:They're different, but they're all good.
Brett:And your video all in one.
Brett:And there's a free version.
Brett:There's actually a true free version for DaVinci Resolve as well.
Brett:So you can actually use it without spending too much money on it.
Brett:Because I understand.
Brett:Yeah, because I understand that Adobe is expensive.
Brett:Like I've used Dolby for quite a while and I got rid of it because it was just, it was too expensive for me.
Brett:So what I'm saying is that for them, is it hiring those experts for the businesses to understand that stuff?
Brett:Because businesses aren't going to be experts and they're, they can't rely on their employees to be experts in podcasting because it's a whole different industry, I think.
Megan:Something that a lot of companies run into.
Megan:I'm sure you've heard the phrase champagne taste on a beer budget.
Megan:Even when you get past these startup costs like getting the tech and if you can get free things that are working, that's great.
Megan:People who are good at using them tend to be more champagne than beer.
Megan:And you want to invest in good quality when it comes to how you're visually and orally presenting yourself to the world.
Megan:So I think a lot of the.
Megan:There can often be a little sticker shock when it comes to hearing, oh yeah, this is what producing a 30 minute video costs.
Megan:Now that's another.
Megan:This could be changing more and more with AI.
Megan:Some of the new tools that are being developed, developed to edit video, to improve video, to add filters, there are stunning in what they can do for good or ill.
Megan:So that's probably something that over the next couple of years is going to be changing more and more.
Megan:Will producers even be needed in a few years?
Megan:I honestly don't know.
Megan:I think there's a very credible chance that they won't be.
Megan:So it's all changing very fast right now.
Megan:But that's the same in every industry.
Megan:Every industry is having this upheaval at the moment.
Megan:It's quite interesting to be able to witness.
Brett:Yeah, we can discuss the elephant in the room, which is AI which I do use AI so I can't deny it.
Brett:I use AI for the show notes.
Brett:I use AI to cut into shorts.
Brett:I use AI to help me with the YouTube like writing the description sometimes because I got five different.
Brett:More than five, but I got several different things if I'm.
Brett:Because I'm a one man show.
Brett:So I'm doing the editing, I'm doing the producing, I'm doing the.
Brett:All the posts if I can.
Brett:So AI does help with helping me do that because my.
Brett:I can't.
Brett:We're human, we can't.
Brett:Our brain can only switch so many different times and then you get writer's block and you're like, I don't know what to write for this.
Brett:And I got a deadline really soon.
Megan:Yeah, we use some AI tools as well.
Megan:Like we produce getting up to around 20 different shows right now we're a team of six and we use AI for drafting notes.
Megan:And I think it also depends on the person a lot.
Megan:Like I find if I use AI to try and write notes or do something, it's going to take me twice as long using AI as it would to just do it because for me it's going to be reading the AI.
Megan:Did it make the same choice I would have.
Megan:Did it express it the same way I would have for me, often.
Megan:No.
Megan:I got my.
Megan:One of my team members loves it because they have terrible blank page paralysis.
Megan:If they can edit something that's already there, that's a much faster process for them.
Megan:So I think it really comes down to just taste.
Megan:Whiskey is now I love AI for helping me debug code.
Megan:That's my favorite use for it.
Megan:And so like making little CSS changes.
Megan:Oh, so helpful.
Brett:Yeah, I've used ChatGPT, I've used Gemini, formerly Bard, because Google decided to change the whole thing again, that's just Google.
Brett:I've used Gronk, which is Twitter's AI which is actually surprisingly pretty good.
Brett:And the ones I've actually been on.
Megan:Twitter in a while, it's X Twitter.
Brett:Slash X but everybody still calls it.
Megan:Twitter because brand recognition can always be Twitter, won't it?
Brett:It's brand recognition and it's hard to break that name Twitter because it's such a unique and interesting name.
Brett:So it's one of those things where.
Megan:It'S people tweet.
Brett:So it's just one of those things where it's plentiful.
Brett:And I agree.
Brett:If you're going to use it to help you.
Brett:So if that's.
Brett:It's.
Brett:That's the way of just helping you look through what you wrote, that might be a better option for you or helping you write it, but then you go back through it and make sure it's something that you would actually write.
Megan:Yeah, yeah.
Megan:It really comes down.
Megan:And think also the ethical concerns that come with AI.
Megan:Right.
Megan:Like, I'm not super comfortable with how copyright's being addressed and I'm not super comfortable with how attribution is currently being handled.
Megan:And I'd really like to see some progress on those before we integrate them too much more deeply into our lives.
Brett:It's true.
Brett:And then the distribution side.
Brett:So should Marker and PR people be asked that question?
Brett:Because people think it's just three, and for the most part, it's three main sites.
Brett:It's going to be your Apple Podcast, it's going to be your Spotify, and it's going to be YouTube Music.
Brett:Not Google Podcasts anymore.
Brett:Because that's going away in April.
Brett:So it's those.
Megan:I can't.
Megan:I'm not emotionally ready for Google Podcast to be gone.
Megan:I love it.
Megan:It's my main app.
Megan:I don't want it to go away.
Megan:I'm so sad it's gone in April.
Brett:I think they did April 2nd and not April 1st, which I'm like, that's wise of you.
Megan:That was wise.
Megan:That was smart.
Megan:Yeah.
Megan:But anyway, I'm sorry, your question.
Brett:So should they ask those questions, be cognizant of what platforms it's on.
Brett:Because For Apple, for iOS users, it's mostly Apple podcasts that they use.
Brett:For me, I'm an Android, almost everything user, but I have an Android phone.
Brett:I use Pocket Cats.
Brett:That's like my main thing that I actually use now.
Brett:No, most might not know about it, but it's actually a pretty useful way of distributing it.
Brett:So should they be cognizant, should they ask questions about that?
Brett:Because it could be beneficial for them to understand, like, where they're all coming from or where's all the traffic coming from, specifically.
Brett:Because you never really know most of the time.
Megan:Yeah, I mean, it's.
Megan:You want to make sure that your podcast is available wherever people listen to podcasts.
Megan:People, like just demonstrated, people have their listening app and they don't like changing and they won't if they won't have to.
Megan:But what matters is, are that they're listening.
Megan:Make sure that every once you get onto the basics, if you're on YouTube Music, formerly Google Podcasts, Spotify, Apple, maybe Amazon, maybe iHeartRadio, get it up there manually as well.
Megan:Every other pocket cast a cast box, they're going to scrape the feeds from one of them and your podcast will be available there.
Megan:It's just going to be available everywhere within a couple of weeks of launching because that's how the ecosystem works.
Megan:The questions that PR and communications and marketers should be thinking about is do listeners on these platforms behave differently in terms of am I getting more traffic to my website from Apple users than from Spotify users?
Megan:Maybe I'll make sure that my show notes are optimized for the Apple experience in that case.
Megan:And even more is if what you really want, it's almost always to get people back to your website.
Megan:It doesn't help my business if someone's hanging out on Spotify, even if they're listening to my.
Megan:I want them on my website or engaging with me on social.
Megan:So figuring out what is going to indicate that people are connecting with what I'm saying and putting out there, that's more important.
Megan:And figuring out when somebody.
Megan:How are the, what are the routes people are taking to get into the environment that we've created as a company, as a pr, marketing, what's happening then and how can we optimize that process to make sure it's happening more and more?
Brett:Yeah, you could summarize where they're coming from.
Brett:IOS is probably more than likely Apple podcasts Android.
Brett:It's a little bit more difficult because Android doesn't have that type of ecosystem.
Brett:It's.
Brett:It is more open.
Brett:So you're going to get like 50 different sources.
Brett:And from my stats, I know if it's Android and it's unknown, it's probably one of those.
Brett:And a lot of times it's.
Brett:It says unknown.
Brett:And I'm like, that does not help me.
Megan:But nice that it's there.
Megan:It's.
Megan:I'm really, I guess, most interested in the behavior of a listener once they make that leap from listener to doing a thing, whatever the thing is, if it's engaging, if it's sharing, if it's, if you're really lucky, sending an email or filling in a content form, like that's where it gets, I think, really exciting.
Megan:But again, that's really only super meaningful for a certain type of business and a certain type of podcast.
Megan:There are a lot of shows where the number overall of listeners is pretty immaterial.
Megan:Because the real value comes, say from relationship building and the people that you talk to as guests.
Megan:And that's where the business ROI is going to come from.
Megan:And cultivating and nurturing those relationships could be just being able to really efficiently create a lot of content that the rest of your team can use and everything else that they do or that can be distributed throughout, say your sales team and your customer service teams is going to help them do their jobs more easily and save time.
Megan:Ways you can leverage a podcast goes so far beyond the listening public for a business.
Megan:And I think that's where things get really exciting is what are the ways this is actually making an impact in your business?
Megan:And maybe you never get, maybe you never crack a thousand downloads, maybe you've podcast for you and you haven't cracked a thousand dollars.
Megan:That's not going to feel good to look at.
Megan:But if you can look at how that content has been used in your business and say, oh, actually our labor cost has dropped 5% since we've been using this podcast content, that could be massive.
Megan:Who cares if anyone's listening?
Megan:That's a hugely valuable way to podcast.
Megan:So I think stepping outside of the box of these are the downloads, these are, this is, these are the listening environments that we're working in and how are we actually using this tool within the business?
Megan:I think there's just so exciting stuff happening there that can be so impactful in a business.
Brett:So if a business actually wants to start a podcast, they could actually do it for a networking opportunity instead of looking at it like a cold hard data analytics.
Brett:You get that human touch or that PR touch because that's about awareness more than it is about cold hard marketing sales, which still PR people should be concerned and want to try to do sales as well.
Brett:But it could be a different avenue of, hey, I want to, let's say someone came up with one.
Brett:To me, I'm a moving company.
Brett:I want to do a podcast with real estate agents.
Brett:So I get that business, but I also get that marketing or that networking opportunity.
Megan:That's exactly it.
Megan:So that's fantastic.
Megan:Use case as well.
Megan:Moving company might want to talk to, they might want to have a local business podcast.
Megan:Talk to the real estate agents in their area, the local chamber of commerce, different restaurants, who's got a move in day special and cultivate relationships that way.
Megan:It's a super fascinating way to look at it.
Megan:And I think I mentioned a little bit at the top, the high level archetype for podcasting and that's what you've just started to touch on a little bit is looking at it relationship instead of growth.
Megan:So we see five real we call them the Business Podcast blueprints and they help inform strategic decision making within a show.
Megan:So there is exactly as you say, relationship building is one of them.
Megan:Thought leadership is another audience engagement, conversion and content.
Megan:And those are like the Prime Directive.
Megan:If I may reference a popular franchise for the podcast and it's going to help make decisions about everything else.
Megan:And within that you can get into the really deep optimization for specific metrics that matter to your business the most.
Megan:This is where I nerd out.
Megan:So sorry.
Brett:Oh, I got the reference.
Brett:I knew it was from Star Trek, so I already knew where the reference was going.
Brett:For those that didn't know that was from Star Trek, the Prime Directive, that was like their core thing that they followed type basically ethical and rural morality type of the thing.
Brett:For those that didn't know I got you.
Brett:I'm following, I'm tracking with what you said.
Brett:But.
Brett:But yeah, yeah.
Brett:It's almost like PR Podcasting needs like a PR thing to reestablish itself.
Brett:Not just cold hard numbers, but also like the human side of it.
Brett:That's what I'm feeling because everything that I'm reading is always about the cold hard numbers which yes, you need to actually care about that from a marketing perspective, but we need to understand the human side of it because let's just talk about the pandemic made us less reliant on humans because we had to be shut up in our room and not go anywhere.
Brett:At least in California it was like that.
Brett:But should we like reimagine it as there are different touch points and different objectives that you should be hitting that aren't just besides.
Brett:And yes, they should be going to your website, but just aren't just about going to your website.
Brett:Should be about networking.
Brett:Should be about connecting with your customer on a different level for different types of shows.
Megan:Definitely there, there are, there are some shows that all they need is that cold hard data to be able to make a decision and be able to have value from the show.
Megan:Others need that relationship building and really optimizing those touch points through the entire guest process.
Megan:It comes down to.
Megan:And again, I am speaking about podcasts that are for businesses here, not that podcasts like this is my.
Megan:Like, it's different when you're podcasting because you love it.
Megan:And the community of people who podcast because they love it is amazing.
Megan:I'm Data Girl.
Megan:So what I focus on is how do you Measure the fuzzy stuff.
Megan:How do you measure and communicate and have clarity around is the relationship building, working?
Megan:And so I think you, the nice thing, the best thing about podcasting is it's so fluid.
Megan:It can do so many different kinds of things and you can prioritize whatever you want.
Megan:There's not a set, there's no rules you have to follow other than uploading and downloading standards for the type of content you create.
Megan:But you can prioritize whatever you want.
Megan:And just as a business, you just have to make sure there's a business case for it and that it's doing the job that it needs to do.
Megan:But beyond that, you're the boss of your podcast.
Megan:You can do whatever you like.
Brett:And so are we going to see like more?
Brett:Because you said, because you talked about AI as with almost industry kind of taking over some of the things.
Brett:So are we going to see less human hosts?
Brett:Are we going to see less podcast producers?
Brett:Because that is the question that we all have to ask.
Brett:Where is AI going to take jobs?
Brett:I guess the best way of doing it or take other roles that humans were originally doing?
Brett:Or is, are the hosts safe for now?
Brett:Because you still have that human side and I can't really think on their feet that well yet.
Megan:Yeah, I think hosts are probably safe because I think, and I mean, I don't have data or research to back this up, but I think most people prefer listening to a human than an AI.
Megan:You know, no one really wants to read an AI article.
Megan:What's the point?
Megan:You can get ChatGPT to write one just for you.
Megan:There's no, like, why bother being able to hear someone's voice and hear the, how they talk about things, that really does create an intimacy.
Megan:Those parasocial relationships are very real.
Megan:I don't think that's going anywhere on the production side of things.
Megan:And as a producer who owns a production company, this makes me a little nervous.
Megan:I think there's a lot of evidence that a lot of what we currently do is going to be replaced by AI in the coming years.
Megan:And being ready for that is probably really important.
Megan:But I think the humans, talking to and listening to humans, I don't think that's going anywhere.
Megan:Whether or not they need third party professionals to make them sound good while they're doing it, that's up for debate.
Brett:Yeah, I mean, for me personally, I do think the editing and the producing might go more AI, but you're still going to want to have one person that you can talk to.
Brett:That's not an AI bot because you can't get rid of the human touch.
Brett:Like, however much AI might amaze and dazzle us, people still want that human touch.
Brett:That AI, I don't know will ever produce, but may try to produce.
Megan:Yeah, we'll have to see.
Megan:It's like you've said, it's changing every day.
Megan:There's something new happening and there's something new available.
Megan:It's just a matter of, you know, hanging on for the ride and seeing where it's going to take us.
Brett:So where do you see the future of podcasting going?
Brett:Do you see video taking up more of the limelight?
Brett:Do you see live eventually becoming the thing?
Brett:Because you have LinkedIn live and that's their main focus right now and not as much the video recording side of it.
Brett:Do you see audio taking like a.
Brett:Is audio going to come back like records did all of a sudden as the limelight?
Brett:Like, what do you see happening in the next five years?
Megan:Yeah, so here's.
Megan:I think there will be more video podcasts, but I think there's also going to be more audio only podcasts.
Megan:I think they're going to keep developing in line.
Megan:They're going to develop in a parallel way because it's like you made the point if people are watching the videos at night, that's a different type of audience than maybe the one that you need for your business podcast.
Megan:Who is going to be a listener, who's on their walk at lunch or using the gym.
Megan:It takes into who is listening and when is going to make an impact.
Megan:And I.
Megan:So I think video first podcast and audio first podcasts are going to continue to develop in a parallel fashion.
Megan:I don't think live is going to really.
Megan:I said this about video years ago and I was wrong.
Megan:So I'm potentially going to be wrong about this as well.
Megan:But I don't think lives are really podcasts.
Megan:The energy is completely different.
Megan:There's such a difference in creating something that can be responded to by the audience and something that can't.
Megan:It's broadcast versus dynamic two way conversation.
Megan:And I think those are different enough that live is not going to become a podcast replacement.
Brett:It's.
Megan:I mean, I don't know what's your main experience when you watch a recording of a live.
Megan:I always.
Megan:It's weird.
Megan:The audio is never as good and it just feels like you're missing out on something rather than taking advantage of something.
Megan:And it's fine to watch a replay to catch up on what you missed, but you missed it is the point, you never missed a podcast.
Megan:It's there for you when you're ready for it.
Megan:And you never missed a YouTube video.
Megan:You can watch it whenever you like.
Megan:So I think that's a fundamental difference in how people engage with lives versus broadcast style media.
Megan:And I think that's going to develop in its own way.
Brett:Yeah.
Brett:I think, and this is just my opinion about the live portion of podcasts.
Brett:It's going to have to be like a panel discussion roundtable thing, more than just a two way conversations.
Brett:I feel like two way conversations are good for recording.
Brett:I don't think they're that great for live.
Brett:That's just my humble opinion.
Brett:I don't watch live streams very often because it's just two people and it's like you could just record it and, and then just edit it out and do it that way.
Brett:I think panel discussions are probably going to be the main bread and butter for live streaming because you, it's hard to do that with these types of software with a panel because you're going to have someone like one person pops up, One person pops up.
Brett:One person pops up through the video portion of it.
Megan:Someone's always got video lag.
Brett:Yeah.
Brett:And that's really confusing because you're like, I can't follow this because it's not in an open wide format that you could have through live streaming where you can just have a big table and just maybe have a few cameras panned to the people.
Brett:But it feels like it's, it's there, it's live and you, if you missed it, but you can still go back and listen to it.
Megan:Yeah.
Brett:All right, so people listen to this podcast and they're like, man, she has a lot of great information.
Brett:So where can people find you online?
Brett:To learn more about this information that you given to us, you should go.
Megan:To podcastingforbusiness.com that is where you'll find pretty much everything.
Megan:You'll get to hear our podcast the Company show, do a lot of case studies and skill building for company podcasters.
Megan:You'll find our original research, the state of business podcasting report, and all of the details about the different ways that we can support companies in tracking the stats and understanding the value that their podcasts are bringing to their businesses.
Brett:All right, any final thoughts for our listeners?
Megan:I would say, especially if you are, let's call it in a podcast adjacent industry, in the pr, in the communications, in the marketing, always come down to what's the business outcome of this.
Megan:Podcasting has a lot of shiny new things that are changing and are very exciting and everyone seems to have one right now.
Megan:But not every business needs a podcast.
Megan:It's not the best way for every business to achieve their goals.
Megan:So really always start the conversation of should we have a podcast with what's going to be the impact on the business?
Megan:And if you remember that, you will always be able to give your clients.
Brett:Good advice and talk to experts too.
Brett:Just ask them how long it takes.
Megan:It doesn't hurt.
Brett:How long does it take them to do their stuff?
Brett:And know the time.
Brett:How much time it takes because there is some money, but it's more time than money, honestly.
Megan:So true.
Megan:So true.
Megan:I tend to.
Megan:I often tell people you're thinking about podcasting.
Megan:If you're going to record for half an hour, you're going to want to plan at least a half an hour of prep and at least an hour of promotion.
Megan:And that's going to be the bare minimum.
Megan:And that's if you have outsourced editing for the amount of time that you're going to put in.
Megan:So if you're just doing the talking head job job, you're still looking at almost like triple the time of recording to actually get everything done.
Brett:All right, Megan, thank you for joining Digital Copy Marketing Brew and sharing your knowledge on the podcast industry specifically for businesses.
Megan:Brett, thank you so much for having me.
Megan:I hope this was available to people listening.
Megan:I had a great time and I really appreciate you making the space for this.
Brett:Yes, and thank you for listening as always.
Brett:Please subscribe to this podcast of all your favorite podcasts and leave five star review free does help with the rankings.
Brett:And join us next week as we talk to another great thought leader in the PR and marketing industry.
Brett:All right, guys, stay safe.
Brett:Get to understanding if podcasts are right for you or if guesting is right for you, and see you next week later.
